February 16, 2012
My Turn to Rant
Thursday morning and already looking forward to the upcoming long weekend, my Apex awaits and snow is falling. I will get home next Monday night only to turn around Tuesday, load up the truck with three more sleds and three guys from YMUS heading back north for some testing and discussions. I will finally get a chance to try a Nytro with the front end kit which is currently being raced quite successfully in various cross countries in the US. I’m hoping the timing and conditions allow us to be on snow dawn to dusk next Wednesday racking up some big numbers on the sleds. I know the guys who are joining me are seasoned riders and barring any ‘incidents’, it should be a good day.
I want to thank those of you who responded to my last post, or more likely responded to the release of the Nytro XTX back-country. Good or bad, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to give me constructive feedback. I can’t say I was surprised at some of the more critical reactions. I did have to bite my tongue on a few points which I thought were a bit unfair but I am not here to defend anything today. I know the expectation for some new, ground-breaking iron from Yamaha is high right now (actually it always is). The Nytro especially is overdue for a massage (me too! come to think of it). Having internet ‘count down tickers’ to March 2, video teasers, viral hints and hype only fuel the desire. Frankly speaking it is unlikely that MY 2013 will go down as one of the land-mark new product launches like I described a couple of posts back when I visited some of my favorite meeting memories. I am surprised that no one put two and two together regarding the type of dealer meetings which were held around each of those prior releases and what is planned for the upcoming one – boys and girls it was a good hint! ;-)
All that said, there is a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes. And as Hal pointed out in the comments, 2013 is just a blip on the radar when it comes to what we have done, what we are capable of doing and what is to come in the future…
BTW I really appreciated the positive comments defending the Apex. I know I am not alone when I hear someone bashing an Apex because it is too ‘this’ or not enough ‘that’, (right Sean? 
) I wish I had a better parallel than motorcycles to illustrate what I believe needs to happen in the snowmobile industry but let me try. I haven’t quite put my finger on it but if you were to take the current Apex, put it in its element- being the fast, flowing trails most of us dream about – and run it against anything in the current crop of sleds; you’d be extremely hard-pressed to find fault. The new Apex along with its sibling Vector, are IMO near perfect trail sleds and the harder and longer you push them the better they work. For those who are still stuck on the weight / handling, and the older issues like grip warmers, bearings and stuff, sorry to say its time to get over it, trade up or move on. Problem is, as I see it, we haven’t (yet) created the kind of positioning opportunities in snowmobile like we have with bikes. Motorcycle riders don’t compare an R1 to a YZ or Raider or Tenere. They are all purpose built to deliver a specific ride character in certain conditions and are all respected for different reasons. I have never heard someone on an adventure bike crap all over a sport bike because it is heavy by their class definition or a cruiser rider lament that the chassis doesn’t take the bumps like an enduro. See where I’m going?
So why do we compare sleds like they are all designed to do the same thing, the same way at the same level for everyone. It seems to me that the snowmobile trails (or lack of) offer a more vast range of conditions and terrain than motorcycles. The Apex is not a snow cross sled or a boon docker but dang-it, they’re awfully hard to beat on a decent trail which is exactly what we intended it to be… sorry, not trying to open a debate, it was simply my turn to rant 
Cheers cr
Chris,
All I want to know is if Yamaha is in the sled market for the long term or not?
Hey Mr. T, If there was some high level plan to exit the sno-mo biz, I wouldn’t necessarily know about it. That said, I am close enough to see the writing on the wall if someone was to scribe something. I can tell you a couple of things for sure. If I thought Yamaha was going to quit the game, I wouldn’t be here. So to answer your question, to the best of my knowledge we are in it to win it – for the long haul. It was announced last week that we are changing the name of the Minocqua Test Center to the Minocqua R&D Center hmmmmmm. We are in the process of changing it up, not exiting and I for one am excited by the potential of our direction. Straight enough for you?
cheers cr
February 16th, 2012 at 6:11 pmchris,i must lift my hat to you,you are the only one in this industry that connects directly with us,the customers,and when time comes for a my introduction,you take the good,the bad and the ugly,dont know how you do it,i get mad just reading all the bad comments and i dont even work for yamaha,we had our sleds in the heated garage last week in cochrane,i couldnt help but notice the buid quality of my vector vs the other brands,to me,the best thing that could happen to the yamaha line up,would be a 100hp trail sled and a price drop,i’m not asking for too much am i,keep up the good work on the blog
chow,pat
Hey Pat, nothing a chat with my buddy Cap’n Morgan can’t fix LOL cheers cr
February 16th, 2012 at 7:59 pmNice post chris.Really hit the nail(or spark plug)on the head.I was just flipping through an old supertrax mag from 1993 with a story about the Exciter SX.The boys at supertrax told about the cool(and very trick)Exciter you had that gave there wildcats and RXLs fits.Full ohlins suspension along with motor mods.They seemed blown away by it(and the competition).Was this sled a pet project of yours or yamaha R&D?(they also made reference about not buying any swamp land from you in the future)That must of been one sleeper of a sled?
Holy cow LS, you are drumming up some ghosts for me there. If I recall I did have full Ohlins on that sled, I built the engine myself, used to have time for projects in those days… laundry list to the best of my recollection. crank-shaft lightened (pork-chopped) and balanced, got the porting spec from Tim B and hogged out the cylinders, milled heads keeping squish, PSI pipe, balanced the drivers, spent some time clutching, think that’s about it. the bigger question is: what are you doing reading back-issues of Supertrax, alone, in the garage… oh my
cheers cr
February 16th, 2012 at 8:00 pmChris,
This is one of your best posts ever. It is dead on in my humble opinion. I will offer a little perspective here to further illustrate your point. Bear with me here! I’m 36 and I’m about as serious as you can be about this sport (have been since I was little). I have been interested in four strokes since the RX-1 was launched. Having said that, I live in upstate NY and currently ride a model year ’11 600 etec X. I love the sled. By all accounts it is an improvement over my previous 600 SDI. Here’s the rub. I ride all over Quebec (3 trips a year usually). Needless to say we put on big miles in addition to what I do home when we have snow. That said, as much as I love light weight and flickable, all the guys I’m riding with are running 4tec GT’s. They are older guys and very experienced, and I can say with confidence not one will ever go back to a two-stroke. Reality: the etec is excellent (at least in the 600), but for the kind of riding we do most the thumper is a better machine. I had a brief interlude with a 4tec renegade last year before the etec but I hated the long 16 inch wide track, it was just too big. I have demo ridden all your sleds many time and I have to say, despite whatever imperfections they may have they look, sound and feel great! I know they are not perfect, but they are most definetely the best built machines in the industry and the engines are impeccable. There is a lot of hype and BS on the internet. For my part the only thing holding me back from buying a ’12 Apex this spring is my riding buddies and a great Doo dealer. I have three awesome Yammi dealers close as well. I’m torn. Have been for some time. Bottom line, with the miles we do, there is real appeal with a “heavy” four-stoke. At 3000 to maybe 4000 miles right now I’m looking to get out of it and that certainly would not be the case with one of your sleds. You hit the nail on the head with this post. It has always been the case that there is no perfect machine. You have to be honest about where and how you ride and make a choice based on how you ride most often. To me, Yamaha does listen to it’s real customers, and most seem very happy with the quality products they enjoy. Keep moving forward building the highest quality product in the industry and don’t ever compromise no matter what you read on the internet. Stay the course. Thanks!
hey Justin, really appreciate your viewpoint on this. Really good to have someone like yourself take the time to share your thoughts. I hope we can get you on board one day as I think you would make a great ambassador for our products
cheers cr
February 16th, 2012 at 9:12 pmGreat post Chris, I’ve never thought about sleds quite that way. Pretty interesting to view the sled world through that lens and I see why Yamaha does certain things. I think the reason why the majority, including myself don’t view snowmachines in the same manner as motorcycles is because there are street bikes and off road bikes. Sleds are strictly off road vehicles, particularly in my corner of the world. Sounds like in your neck of the woods the majority of riding is basically “on road” or groomed trail. I can see why you like the Apex. I also liked my Vector except when I tried to ride it like an off road bike. Because a snowmachine started off as a vehicle in which to travel over the snow and over hill and dale, it will be very difficult for Yamaha to change people’s view of what a sled is supposed to do.
I can view my Nytro as an old, mid-80′s TT 600. Reliable, comfortable, powerful but old school in being heavy and not up to today’s handling standards. My IQR 600 is a YZ. I wish Yamaha would make a sled version of a YZ.
Maybe you could post some impressions of the new Nytro front end? Thanks for another great blog post!
Thanks Scott will-do!! cr
February 17th, 2012 at 1:38 amHi Chris!
I haven’t tested any Apex since i tested the 2004 Warrior so I will not comment on that, but I hope to be able to test my dealers demo Apex XTX before the end of the winter, even though a Apex is not for my kind of riding.
I know that a lot of comments are pretty harsh, mine included, but I do think that people that comment are those that are always looking for a new and better sled for next winter, and those always want something new every year. That is not possible since the sledding industry isn’t big enough for that but a lot of us seem to forget that when it comes to new product launches. But the bottom line is, don’t overhype things if they are not up to the challenge, it will do more bad that good. The new Nytro for example, that’s basically the same Nytro as I have and it’s 2009 with 1,75″.
I now that bikers are a demanding crowd but I think that the sledder is even more demanding. A biker will by something that is cool for their bike even if they don’t get any more performance while a sledder will by something cool for their sled if they gain any performance out of it.
That’s one of the reasons why I think sledders are more demanding.
I know that I like many others have high expectations on the new iron from Yamaha and we may feel a little let down if our dreams don’t come true.
When I was changing gears in my XTX yesterday it struck me how many thing that are under the panels on the Nytro. I wonder if they all are necessary? Sometimes I do believe that the sleds are over engineered and a lot of things could be removed or lighten. And I guess that You are feed up whit all comments regarding weight, but I must say that is one of the key element in choosing my next sled. To me it’s not all about hp, I think weight and suspension is more crucial than hp for a good sled. A light sled with a twin version of the Nytro engine available with a 136″ and 144″, 1,75″ track would be my dream sled and would suite my riding pretty good.
Sorry for the rant, but You should know that I appreciate a lot that You make time for this blog.
February 17th, 2012 at 5:03 amHave a safe ride!
Thanks!
Chris, as others have expressed in their comments, you share my feelings exactly and express them way better than I ever could. I just want to say how refreshing it was to read the comment submitted by Justin above. Even thou he rides yellow, his insight and comments are appreciated by us true blue riders. Thanks Cris for the great post, and thanks to Justin for showing us the outside perspective.
very much agree, thanks for sayin! cr
February 17th, 2012 at 10:06 amHey Chris, I guess my post got you fired up? lol.. In all fairness with the comparison to the bikes… Yamaha makes serious changes to there motor-x bikes almost every 2 years or every year. Probabaly cause Honda is in the game. They DO NOT do that with their sled market. However, I do realize that Yamaha sells way more bikes then sleds.
I like what I hear from you about the future direction that you posted with regards to Yamaha sleds. I will gladly get rid of my 2011 ski-doo 1200 gade to come back to a new ride with an awesome Motor… You know what they say.. Yamaha has to “bring it” and now. Time has passed and hopefully the future will be better for us sledders in terms of Yamaha sled products.
Cheers…
Gotta admit SF, you post did place a small bug in my butt as I truly believe we have addressed so much of the original issues found in the RX-1 and first gen Apex. Granted it’s not for everyone but for us old guys that still like to bomb around on the trails, it’s dang near perfect now after 10 years of constant (albeit subtle) evolution… always a pleasure
cheers cr
February 17th, 2012 at 12:48 pm“For those who are still stuck on the weight /handling, and the older issues like grip warmers, bearings and stuff, sorry to say its time to get over it, trade up or move on”
Well Chris not all of us live in your utopian world where sleds are provided free of charge. We buy something expecting it to work….all of it to work…not just “most” things.
I own an 05 Vector where I replaced the skid with an M10. I am fortunate not to have experienced the hand warmer issue and other maladies that have plagued later model Yamahas.
But in defense of all the other folks who own various Yamahas with the aforementioned defects, maybe your employer should step up to the plate and make everything good. Don’t just call stuff a “tech bulletin”…make it what it should be…a RECALL.
Hey TC, first I am relieved that you have not experienced any problems with your sled. The word ‘recall’ sends up red-flags in this industry. It is generally reserved for issues of safety and consumer protection and regulated by law. If a recall bulletin is issued it triggers a lot of stuff that is monitored closely by governments. Tech bulletins do a fine job of covering product updates and information and we have a well oiled system operating on this fundamental communication tool. It is easy to look at market issues / complaints and think everyone is experiencing things all the same but the fact of the matter, it is seldom like that. We tend to try and fix things as required by the individual and not throw a blanket over our total production.
End of the day the guys do a good job of taking care of the known issues (even outside of regular warranty) but there is still the occasional item that falls into the grey void of what is acceptable wear / function and what is not… the grip warmers come to mind. And even in my Utopian world of free snowmobiles, I rode with freezing hands for three years and whined to anyone who would listen to me on the issues at hand (pun intended)… for the record, I do own three sleds and am seriously considering purchasing my current demo (Apex SE)
cheers cr
February 17th, 2012 at 8:21 pmChris –
Most of your post was right on for me.
Manufacturers make different sleds for different types of riding, but the people buying them want to compare them all as equals. Polaris and Skidoo are the only manufacturers who have really figured this out. This is the reason the Switchbacks Assaults, and MXZ models are selling so good right now.
Sleds that bridge the gaps are what the people want. Most people dont just ditch bang, or just ride off trail, or just ride well groomed long sweeping trails. Because these people want to be able to do it all, they will sacrifice the best performace in one of their target riding arenas for having a more versatile sled.
This is the reason the XTX model for the APEX is what is selling right now. Current Yamaha riders see this as that “gap sled” for them.
I honestly believe that Yamaha has already solved the whole “Weight” issue with the new power steering. People that have not tested the newer Apex with this, it is impossible to explain. This is not something that was put on the Apex to make up for weight it cannot lose. This is an industry changing technology and when you ride it, you will see.
A better comparison for this than motorcycles would be the Side by Side market or the Sand Rail market. In these markets, weight is not an issue. Horsepower, suspension, handling, and comfort are your targets and it doesnt matter what the terrain is, if you hit all four of these marks, the differece in terrain is eliminated.
If you have enough horsepower and the ability to keep the handling perfect, the weight doesnt matter. The new power steering on the Yamaha is the first real push in this direction. In 5 years, when the rest of the market is required to run 4 strokes, this will become more apparent. And you can say it wont happen, but it did in Motocross and in the ATV market already.
Thanks Derek, I am pondering if maybe as the sleds get more and more specialized, we need to start positioning them to reflect what they do best and where they compromise… either that or re-focu on the holy grail of machines that will do everything for eveybody but I think as we evolve, the equipment is going to fall more into specific niches and areas of use. cr
February 21st, 2012 at 8:16 amChris,
February 21st, 2012 at 11:25 amThank you for replying to my first comment on this post. I know anything can happen but by the way you put it, I get the impression they are in it for the long haul and that is all we really can ask for. Thanks again for your honesty!!
Mr. T
P.S. That 100 hp trail sled would go great with a vector for the wife and I.
Chris,
February 21st, 2012 at 11:45 amI really enjoy reading your blog and the comments from fellow snowmobilers. It all does the sport and industry good! I loved this post and think that it is about time someone mentioned that you can’t have everything perfect for everyone, thanks Chris! I would also like to add to this my experience with this subject. I ride a 2009 Nytro MTX and love it! But everyone I ride with rides other brands and I constantly get hammered about my “heavy Yami”. But I don’t see it! To me it feels light and nimble. I have rode lots of sleds and out of all of them the Nytro FITS ME best! I am a large rider, with all my gear on I am pushing about 280 to 290lbs. I could safely say that the next biggest guy I ride with is probably only 200lbs. with his gear on. I took some time to set the suspension up on the Nytro for me, and it is awsome how it handles! I have come to learn also that you can’t ride a 4 stroke like a 2 stroke either. They are different and need to be rode different. I found that with my weight and size I can actually climb higher and go farther and play in the powder better riding on the Nytro than on even the best 800 2 stroke! The light weight guys I ride with think my Nytro has no power when they ride it, but when I ride there 800 2 strokes I think they have no power. So you can see that it depends upon the person, the riding stile, etc. and there is no way to make a one machine fits all in these situations! I guess the best way I can say it is like this, I have been a mechanic for over 15 years and when asked what car or truck I think is the best to buy I always say,”Give it the BUTT TEST! Because if it doesn’t FIT YOU then you won’t like it no matter what anyone else says!” Thanks again for all you do for us, the customers!
Brady
Chris,
February 21st, 2012 at 6:42 pmGreatest post ever! Please dont forget us riders that care more about quality/durability fit n finish rather than saving weight at all costs as the other`s are doing. Yamaha has that quality reputation and i think, that is what attract yamaha customers the most. I enjoy my sled (apex xtx) even when it´s parked in the garage:) cause it has that “extra” touch of state of the art enginering shining and i cant help starting the engine sometimes just to hear the sound from the 4-banger:)poor battery lol. Had that bad habit with the old 700 sx triple time ago to! So keep get me those heavy apex`s and youll at least have one loyal customer walking to the dealer every year or 2:)
Chris,
I enjoy your posts and thanks for all you do for your customers.
I have a 2011 Apex SE and a 2012 Nytro and love them both for different reasons….rough trails, the Nytro wins hands down, if you want to set the pace on smooth trails, I would take an Apex anyday….. I would also agree with the above posted that there is no other sled fits me better than the FX Nytro…For bigger riders who like to ride aggressive, its is the best (IMO)….
On a seperate note, I did see all the negative feedback on the launch of the 2013 XTX from riders who choose other brands of sleds…. Competitive innovation drives new ideas and utimately, better riding for all of us, regardless of what brand you ride….Its sad that people cast judgement without even riding the machine.
I will always ride Yamaha. Never once have I broke down in the woods. Cant say that for my buddies on other brands.
February 21st, 2012 at 9:36 pmChris,
It sounds like Super Trax likes are Apex now!
Yes, I saw a preview of Lukes latest Snowtrax review and its very good…but then again whats not to like??
February 24th, 2012 at 11:27 amcheers cr
Chris,
February 25th, 2012 at 12:07 pmJust as soon as one of the most “influential” naysayers (Lester brood)seems to be coming aboard, it appears the most “entertaining” (Yellowknife) is readying to jump ship!
Thanks for staying in touch with the faithful. I am highly biased i have had twenty different yamaha toys over the past thirty years and enjoyed them all. Just this morning i watched a popular sled tv show and they defended the new cat 800 not having electric start for this model year as being a good call on cats part. I honestly cant understand how yamaha sleds got where they are in the mental peception department. The other three manufacturers can sell stuff with ten recalls and the media wont admit it was a mistake calling it sled of the year. The belts on yamaha four strokes last longer than the 800 twins made by a certain canadian sled maker but they keep pushing them. If the sled industry would adopt standards like the streetbike and automotive industries yamahas would rule, nobody would buy a streetbike that rarely completed a trip without a dealer visit. I hope the day comes both for yamahas success and more selfish reasons, i hate having trips ruined by broken down sleds and i really dislike riding 5 sleds back in a group of two strokes all day, they still smell even with the new wonder injection.
February 26th, 2012 at 5:49 pmI guess the big issue is that Yamaha has a reputation (correct or not) for having the ability to design, engineer, and manufacture really cool and top of the line vehicles, as shown in their other motorsports categories. It can be frustrating when it seems like they forget about snowmobiles, especially mountain riders.
February 27th, 2012 at 1:39 pmI would love to see the Nytro add 7-10 litres of fuel capacity. I am considering a new sled and love the look, sound and perceived reliability of the Nytro but with a range of approx. 100-110 miles (170 km’s) (from what I have been told), that is a very discouraging number. I often ride for 130+ miles and my cuurrent sled (’05 Sabrecat 500 carb) gets me at least 150 miles. I know that the Nytro beats it in mpg but I think that a 100-110 mile range is not good enough, especially for the mountain/backcountry rider who is usually riding away from civilization. Sure I could get the “trail tank” or bolt on a rack and carry a jerry can, but the e-tec’s are getting almost 200 miles range. It doesn’t seem like it would be too difficult a task to add a handful of litres to get the range to a more satisfactory level without putting it on the consumer to pay this kind of money for a sled and then have to “improve” it so that you can ride all day. I have no problem with accessorizing a sled to fine tune it to my preferences, but having the mpg benefit of a four sroke seems pointless when you are still the first guy to run out of fuel. A tank that has enough capacity to allow the rider to have a solid day riding is a basic requirement in my mind and 140-150 miles of fuel is not unreasonable to expect from one’s sled in stock configuration.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:50 amHi Chris,
I for one own a 2011 apex xtx. I am a long time customer grew up riding srv’s and this is my 4th brand new yamaha. I appreciated the fine tuning yamaha did with this sled rather than bring out a new chassis and having to work through all the bugs do to it. I would much rather have a fine tuned sled then just the new cool thing. My only gripe with yamaha is how they didn’t step up to the plate for there customers due to the slide issue on the new apex. We spend 15k on a new sled and either have to buy dupont hyfax right away or buy a larger wheel kit to cure they problem. I wish they would back there customers a little better on such an issue. Other than that the sled is flawless and the most fun I have ever had on a sled and its built for exactly what I do. Which is lots of hard, fast groomed trail riding. Unfortunatly on the other hand because yamaha has not been coming out with anything new my group of riders left for arctic cat. We used to be almost all yamaha now its only me and my brother because of that. I just wanted to commend yamaha on producing exactly what I wanted….A refined sled Thanks
February 29th, 2012 at 4:24 pmMy comment is to reply, if it be ok, to Javeloon’s concerns about the Nytro’s fuel tank. If you read my earlier comment you will see that I am the only one in my riding group that rides a yamaha. I also ride the oldest sled as well(2009). I am also a very large rider, like I said about 280-290lbs. with all my gear on. and I ride hard as well! Grab Bar or Stay Home! I can easily get 110+ miles out of a tank and have even made 130+ miles without haveing to carry extra fuel. In fact I am the only one that doesn’t carry extra fuel in my group! And don’t be fooled, I have yet to see any e-tec get 200 miles on a tank of fuel. Most the guys I ride with dump in there jerry cans before we head back to the trucks and thats after they have already burned through 13+ gallons of Premium fuel. I will take my cheap gas 7+ gallon tank anyday knowing I paid far less in fuel and went just as far as anyone else. Besides, 100+ miles of hard mountain riding is a sun up to sun down riding experience. I wouldn’t be to concerned about the nytro’s fuel, because you will save a ton compared to others on your first ride, and I am not even figuring in injector oil! Thanks again to Chris for this awesome blog and I hope I helped with the Nytro fuel concern. Brady
Very cool, thanks Brady, that’s some good real world info, fuel range really depends on the conditions and speed but you are very correct in questioning the brochure claims which are achieved under perfectly ideal conditions. Hopefully Javeloon sees your comment.
March 1st, 2012 at 9:14 amThere is an aftermarket ‘trail tank available for the Nytro that increases the range significantly (Details are here in an older post) if you really want to go the big distance.