January 22, 2009
Skis – Darting – Carbides
One of the most common product requests we have is, at first blush, a very simple one and one that I hear constantly from friends in the media as well as our dealers. When is Yamaha going to change the ski’s to something newer?
Good question. I will likely raise a couple of eyebrows for trying to address this but I think most of you will understand and appreciate that I am only offering another opinion to the ongoing conversation. Truth be known we have been working on a new ski, off and on for several years… still are. I won’t go into the details but one thing we face at every turn is patent frustrations. There are only so many things you can do to a ski (or carbide) and over the years most have been done and many patents filed. We are splitting hairs to find something that doesn’t come close to someones elses design. Funny thing however, I am not all that convinced we really need one!
Now I better explain that! From a marketing POV we absolutely need a new ski, simply because of all the negative comments I’ve heard and read both in print and on line. From a performance and handling POV, those who have experimented with some of the latest carbide runner designs will most likely concur with the following opinion:
It is not the ski so much as the carbide runner that needs to be addressed.
In fact, our current ski has changed significantly, since its first inception in 1999. It has seen numerous updates and versions. We still have part numbers for the shallow keel (Vmax style) deep keel (ViperS / early RX-1) mid keel (Apex / Vector) saddle type (original), saddle-less (current), wide (TF / VK) and mountain. Within each of those categories there have been tweaks to keel angles as well as axle mounting locations.
Interesting side bar: Jon has been experimenting with our wide ski on his XTX after trying one at a joint test. He pulled the boards off an 09 Venture TF along with a set of piggy back Floats and bolted it all up. Low and behold the steering effort was terrible, making harder to maneuver but the darting is improved. Turns out the sled he rode in the US had VK skis, not TF skis which appear identical, hmmm, upon closer inspection the mounting hole is not the same (ahead of the VK Pro) consequently the TF boards are pulled back towards the snow-flap effectively changing everything. The lesson in this should be applied to any aftermarket or OE ski-swap. Has the chosen ski been developed for and tested on the sled in question? Slap on a set of Pilots designed for a different chassis and weight bias and expectations are what?
Before proceeding, I must drop in a little caveat: ‘Darting’ is characteristic of snowmobiling. All snowmobiles will exhibit darting under certain conditions, it is the nature of the beast when there are many sled tracks in packed snow.
If you are looking to reduce (eliminate) darting, dial in the amount of ‘push’ or under-steer and or improve predictability, these can all be achieved to a large degree by simply changing the carbide runners. You really don’t need to change the ski to make some significant alterations to the ride character. I am not saying you won’t get similar results from a new set of skis (however there are many types and levels) but the runner, IMHO is at the crux of the matter.
There is an interesting ‘poll’ thread on-going over on TY discussing the virtues of two particular carbide designs. I was able to relate as I began my ski experiments a long time ago. I will only go as far back as the first RX-1 deep-keel where I discovered I was not man enough to hang onto the bars of the beast using the stock set-up. That first year I upgraded the sway-bar to a 13 mill with the new links, changed to the mid-keel ski ( a gift from a friend in testing) and hooked up the rear end with a pre-pro RipSaw track, much better, but still ‘darty’, next came thicker host bar, more aggressive carbides, more ski lift…
The following year I moved to the Simmons ski which was working pretty good until I got behind a bunch of REV tracks which btw, seemed strikingly similar to the Simmons… gave them away to Tom and moved back to a mid-keel and duallies… Things got a lot smoother but a small top speed loss and a few missing chips had me thinking. Along comes the Apex (same ski) and more new players in the dual carbide game, tried a couple more designs then stumbled upon a new single skag out of Quebec which came highly recommended from some respected dealer friends (Irwin’s and Markham Mower) The Cobra Head by Qulaipiece offered some quantifiable benefits with its integrated ‘corrector’ (which I first remember seeing in UHMW form coming out of Quebec when everyone had steel skis, to reduce darting fifteen years ago). I have been running these for a couple of seasons until now, which after reading about the Snowtrackers in Supertrax and researching them, I decided to give a set a try. I am going to save my evaluation for another day but I will say I am impressed and quite satisfied with the handling traits. I have not felt any sled track any straighter than what I have experienced so far with these on my Apex. I am using the semi-aggressive Snowtracker but I still need to try the aggressive model for comparison. (many thanks to my friend Richard (Coyote) for hooking me up.)
Another thing that strikes me, the original corrector, (the plastic shim that was affixed to the front of many ski’s to reduce darting), came out of Quebec and currently (IMHO) the best hi-tech single skag carbides all have built in ‘correctors’ and also come out of Quebec. I conclude that the Quebec trail system which is ranked as one of the best in the world, has led the charge of anti-darting accessories as a result of the smooth, fast and snowy conditions which are their norm.Maybe this is just a Canadian thing but I don’t think so, it is just more prevelant on fast, smooth trails.
Most of the trails I have ridden in the mid-west are so tight and bumpy it’s hard to realize the level of darting because there is so much other stuff going on. My point is, not everyone will experience the same level of ‘darting’ based on the local conditions and perhaps the runner will not be so important to the overall handling. That said however I still maintain that any of our performance snowmobiles can benefit from a high-tech runner to some degree and the vast majority of owners do not need to change out the ski to achieve great handling.
I think of carbides much as I do tires. Most OE tires on cars and trucks are cheap versions that eventually get replaced with superior rubber to yield improved traction and handling. Like carbides, stock tires are a wearable part that will do the job but when it comes time to replace, most performance minded drivers will select something more suited to their conditions and preference.
Whenever I am asked what one thing would I recommend to dial in a Yamaha trail sled, assuming a good PDI (including ski alignment, 0-toe and suspension set-up), I always say a new set of carbide runners. Bake the stockers and try something new. It’s not a one size fits all formula, you have to do a little research considering all the conditions under which you ride , overall sled set-up and riding style. I am convinced the right carbide will negate the need for a new ski and enhance your overall experience and satisfaction.
Cheers cr
Chris,
Love this Blog, gets me through the week until I get on the XTX at the cottage, thanks! I am sure that there are many viewers that don’t speak up too often like me that totally appreciate your efforts!!! I couldn’t agree more, carbides are the best way to drastically improve the handling on a sled. I still have the Simmons hangin’ on the wall in the garage and have not put them on a sled since the RX-1. I have grown to really like the stock skis and after trying many variations of carbides, my favorite are the stud boy shaper bars (7.5″) right from the Yamaha accessories catalogue. Andy raves about the Cobra Heads and I am thinking about trying those next but I have never really had a darting problem….I plan on experimenting with the Simmons as well….(that is unless you get your butt up to the cottage for great ride and take them back!!! haha.)
LOL, didn’t know you were a Sled Talk ‘lurker’ … don’t worry, you can keep the skis, I hope to be trying a set of new Yammie boards in the not so distant future!!
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:05 pmWould be great to hook up with you for a ride, I still remember you picking on all those Cat folks at the Sportsman who didn’t want to get wet… ‘go blue for 02′
Maybe Yamaha should make deal with an aftermarket company such as Curves XS to buy outright or license somehow. These skis are hot these days and have done wonders to smooth out twitchy 2008 FX Nytros. they are the real deal.
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:51 pmWow! What a write-up! Very interesting take on steering issue’s.
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:05 amCR didn’t address the purchasing of a Aftermarket ski for production.
Adding my two cents, with the forever evolving ski designs from the aftermarket and from one particular OE.
Its almost a no catch-up evolution with the sleds.
Expensive, and ONE size doesn’t fit all.
Ski’s are different for every sled model, weight, and application.
I am sure Yamaha is trying to find a common ski, and doing good job.
CR i remember that RX-1 , when i had a production one.
When we swapped , there was a noticeable difference with the mid height Keel.
I would try carbide’s before anything, than if still not acceptable would try a ski.
” just like NO fog helmets on -30 temps”
They all work differently.
Hey ‘Iron Man’, Marc also brings up the ‘why not purchase a patent / product’ idea. In my experience, I have found Yamaha engineers hate to buy someone elses design. Not sure if there are policies behind this or simply pride. regardless there is always a cost attached and every nickle counts to keep the sled business in the black. Thanks for not bringing up the hand warmers
cheers cr
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:26 amIf you remember, you and I touched on the ski issue once before, having the stock shallow keels on my Sx-R and having Ski-Doo’s Precisions on my wife’s Viper ER (that came with it when we bought it). Well, obviously I don’t ride my wife’s sled very often, but this week I rode her sled into work, (a perk of living in the UP) and I don’t know how she rides that thing. I’m going to try some set up adjustments on it, but it pushes hard throught long sweepers and then on iced corners feels like it has so much ski pressure that it is extremely hard to turn the bars, to the point that I had problems with it. So in one breath, you would think that you would need more ski pressure to take away the push in the sweeper, but then it feels like too much ski pressure on the ice. I guess that I’m trying to back up your assessment, that maybe because these skis weren’t designed for this chassis, they just may not work right. Keep up the good work, but I’m STILL waiting for you to finish the “last of the 2-smokes” story, and where my wife’s Viper fits in to this.
-Ben
Hey Ben, I haven’t forgot the Viper story, I have been going through some of my old back-up discs and compiling some data as I refresh my memory… you should see if your dealer (or any of your riding buddies) has a set of mid-keel skis you could borrow and try on the Viper (with a set of dual runners)
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:25 amcheers cr
No problem with my stock skis but i have a few questions,is there any changes to the nytro race sled at the x-games this weekend?and did yamaha ever build a 2-stroke V- twin to test in snowmobiles?
Hey LS, The race sled is in a constant state of change, I will speak with Greg and Andre after the event and see what they are willing to divulge, on the v-twin 2-stroke subject, I don’t recall ever hearing that one, I remember Mr Furusawa (now heading up the Rossi / motogp factory race efforts) was really big on designing a boxer engine at one point… will make some inquires
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 amvery good write up cr,the stock yamaha skis imo are just as good as any other kind of ski,if you go on numerous sled forums,all you hear is people changing skis and darting problems with all 4 brands,its true that all sleds dart from the factory,the only thing i would like to see is maybe have dual runners from factory when you purchase a sled,at the price of sleds these days,i dont think it would cost much more to the manufacturers,you would have alot less people complaining about handling issues,i just slapped a set of woody’s dually’s on my new vector and it is night and day as far as darting goes,does this make sense
no argument from me, quite a valid comment Pat… thanks cr
January 23rd, 2009 at 4:51 pmHi cr, my kids don’t know what a straight line is. Leanne was just out for a ride. DNRLBL on ……You Tube
lol chip off the old block! cr
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:29 pmChris
Nice write up on the skis. This has been a hot topic in the Yamaha camp for a number of years. On my old Warrior I found the real benefit was with slight shiming and changing carbides (found Bergstroms worked well at the time) When I bought my 07 Attak last year I changed out the skis to Pilots. They work work fine but in all honesty the stock ones would have been fine too. I fell into the mode of must change spurred on by the TY boys and gals. Stock Yamaha skis with some of the newer designed skegs will work in my opinion. For those seeking more flotation is another topic and different riding requirement (off trail) It is difficult to have one ski design do everything well.
Cheers
Thanks SD, excellent comment and good reminder about the off-trail / on-trail environment.. cheers cr
January 24th, 2009 at 12:50 pmI’ve been running woody’s duellys on our yammies for a couple of years and am sold on them. Virtually eliminated all darting. I have them on ’02 vmax,’04 viper,’05 vector,and “07 attack, all with stock skis. IMO it’s not the skis.
Thanks sundown, I’m thinking we are not alone! cheers cr
January 25th, 2009 at 7:41 pmAfter watching the X games I had a couple more comments/questions. What happened to Blaze? Why is he riding a Doo now? And this Dane Ferguson thing is a new devolopment too, is this a new freestyle sponsorship thing or did Dane just borrow a sled from someone? And finally after a few lackluster race results on the sno-X side of the house, remember that next weekend is the world famous Soo I-500, where Yamaha has quite the little dominant run going on, so we should have a solid finish to talk about at the begining of Feb.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:14 amChris, so are you saying there is nothing wrong with the handwarmers? If so, then Iknow you are out to lunch on the skis, because they suck… I know there are patents. But I believe Yamaha may need to start trading some of their patents for a set of patent skis.. There current design makes the sled handle so bad. It gets very frustrating after a while… Putting duelies on slows me down on topend. It’s not an option.
Hey Sledfreak… not sure if you are speed reading or just need to vent… but I think you may have missed some of my points… I did mention duallies caused some top speed loss (for some it is an option) and I certainly am not bold enough to suggest our handwarmers are up to snuff, they are not. I also mentioned some people, depending on conditions and style could well benefit from a new ski. I still believe the vast majority of trail riders will be quite happy with the right carbide (not necessarily a duel runner) have you tried a Qualipiece or Snowtracker? If not then I suggest you are missing some important data.
My opening line was a clear acknowledgment that we do indeed need a new ski, sorry… no argument from me
cheers cr
January 26th, 2009 at 3:45 pmHi Cris
Since Admin went crazy on my post I´ll try to do a shorter version of it if I remember what i wrote.
The point I was making is that the stock skis are OK with the right carbides but in my opinion there are no big dissadvantages of the skis being a little wider. At least 6″ wide. Johan Eriksson ran XTX skis on his Pro Stock SE at the last event.
Another question is if there has been any testing with the mountain skis on the shorties? A lot of people run SLP PP or the stock mountain skis and find that there are almost no disadvantages against the narrow skis. My Nytro is a lot nicer in the powder with CA Razors than my friends that has stock skis. After riding my sled and then changing to his sled I got thrown of pretty fast in the powder because the front end dove in the snow.
So is there any difference in the lower part of the ski between mid and mountain skis? and why not use the mountain ski on all the sleds if there are not any big differences? Almost all riders over here in Europe run a little of trail so that might be appreciated…
Hey Erik, thanks for your re-post, sorry about my admin error, still don’t know what happened to the original. I agree, a little extra width on the skis doesn’t hurt, if fact I feel there are even some benefits to a wider ski for trail riding. We have one problem and it is to do with compliance. The state of Wisconsin has passed a law that limits the overall width of the sled and we can’t go any wider on the skis without exceeding it (APEX Vector Nytro etc. non-MTX models). Factory doesn’t want the nightmare of having special specs for different states and provinces. We have had a history of different specs for Europe, (remember you had exciters with long track and ohlins on lots of models when we did not) but YMC is trying to consolidate the specs moving forward… I pass your comments up the chain.
January 27th, 2009 at 2:36 pmcheers cr
Agreed!!! I have always changed out my runners, most of the time from the day I bring the sled home. Currently I am running a set of Stud Boy Dual Runners on my FXNytroMTX (In powder it doesn’t matter and on the trail up – less darting and more predictable handling – IMHO).
Now my wifes Phazer MTX is a different story, I tried dual runners only to find it becomes very difficult to steer and added so much effort that my wife “disliked” me for the entire ride.
So, once again agreed, it is all about conditions and the “out come” you want from your handling.
January 27th, 2009 at 3:03 pmChris, I was speed reading… Sorry about that.. But, I still stand behind what I said. I should not have to find after market options to make this sled handle better, because the skis suck that bad. I also know that options for new ski engineering are slim to none. I just think Yamaha needs to step up to the plate.
This also brings me to the point that Yamaha needs to start buying some tech or trade some, because the skis are unacceptable. I don’t need I need to spend more money to fix their problem.
I’m probably am venting a little here, since my 07 bars that I put on my 06 that were supposed to better, are not. They are also not fixed yet on the 09′s either. I still keep blowing idler wheels and I even have the black accessories wheels to boot…
I know you agree with some of my concerns, but I don’t agree on what I must do as a consumer to help fix these Yamaha issues.
Sorry for the rant. I’m waiting for Feb 12 to see the new lines. I hope they are what I’m thinking they are and all of the Quality issues that were plagued on the Apex have been resolved for 2010. It’s been 4 years, I hope they came up with some ideas.. Later..
Thanks SF, appreciate your explanation and understanding and the fact you have stated your thoughts constructively so that I can forward effectively.
January 27th, 2009 at 3:07 pmcheers cr
You also need to allow us to re-edit our posts for grammer/spelling errors.. Sorry about that. I never see them until after I post it.
don’t think I can do that as the application doesn’t allow.. besides it takes all the fun out of it
January 27th, 2009 at 3:10 pmGreat informative blog guys! Would you by chance have any recommendations on suspension adjustments in order to significantly improve steering bite and response time on an 05 Vector RS ER. for a relatively fast trail rider of 195 lbs.I’ve put Woodys 6″ single carbides and recently moved the limiter front straps to position #3 and brought the rear spring cams to “H” and tightened the front spring to around 80% full compression adjustment.I still go through some turns and say “Woee…that was a bit scary” The ski tend to lift off the snow as well.
I’d certainly appreciate your suggestions. The Yamaha manual is not that informative.
Regards
Not sure where you are located Ron but if you get a chance to try a Yamaha set up with a dual runner or better yet a set of Snowtrackers, you might be quite surprised. There is no easy formula for suspension set-up. I may write a future post on the subject but end of the day, methodical tuning, one thing at a time tested and recorded will generally get you the farthest.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:06 amcheers cr
Hi Chris, great job on the blog…frustrating at times I’m sure, especially when it comes to Yamaha’s short comings, ie. hand warmers, idler wheels, slider wear and yes, skis.
While I appreciate all that was said regarding Yamaha modifying their skis from year to year, in the end, it comes down to carbide runner choice. Your post reminded me of an article I read in one of the snowmobile magazines last year where a couple of Yamaha techs were answering questions regarding the high slider wear on the Yamaha snowmobiles. Many items were touched on, ie. higher speeds versus years before, higher weights than before, icy conditions, etc. however all these explanations applied to ALL snowmobile brands, not just the Yamahas. Nowhere was there a distinction made explaining why Yamahas had higher slider wear versus Skidoo, Polaris, etc.
Just as I was unconvinced then on the slider wear, I’m not convinced now regarding the issue with the skis. Yes, while a good choice in the carbide runner will help alleviate darting and track straighter, that can also apply to ALL manufacturers. With all the negative publicity on Yamaha skis, both online and in print, why doesn’t Yamaha improve things like supplying stock skis with “real carbide runners” then?
One OEM has to have the worst of something, and that distinction goes to Yamaha’s skis.
One suggestion that I’d like to see from Yamaha is for the Customer to have the option of what ski to install, be it the existing line up of Mountain and trail skis, or even a selection of aftermarket skis. My Dealer wouldn’t offer any kind of trade in value for my skis when I swapped them out for Skidoo Pilots.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:53 amFunny you mention the Snowtrackers, I spoke to a friend just yesterday about them. I’ll get Rick and Dave at Motorsports Pickering to order me a set.
Since I mentioned them, I highly recommend these guys for any service to a Yamie sled.They’re both honest and awesome.
I appreciate your reply and will let you know the results.
Regards, Ron.
Thanks Ron, be careful the boyz don’t talk you into a turbo while you are in there, they have built some of the fastest sleds in the country… let me know what you think of the Snowtrackers… cheers cr
January 30th, 2009 at 1:27 amI totally agree with you Chris on the ski issue,I believe the skis are fine and people need to not only set up there snowmobile but learn proper throttle application for a 4-stroke.I have been riding Yamaha snowmobiles now for a total of 10 years 8 of them with 1 arm and I have 0 issues with handiling.I have very little to no ski lift in the corners because I use smooth throttle techniques, not chopping the throttle on the way in and hit it on the way out.The skis from the factory are fine, if the consumers want something better thats what the aftermarket is for.Its just like buying a sportbike the OEM tires are great and do an excellent job but if you really want grip you go to a different compound tire.As far as I am concerned riding as hard as I do with 1 arm I don’t see the problem.
Iliya Spanovich
February 5th, 2009 at 1:23 pmRegarding the “snowtrackers” . The boys put them on and I was away last weekend for a 3 day run to test them out. Absolutely impressive.The Vector maneuvers way better with them. Recommend them with confidence.Sorry to hear Iliya lost her left arm.
Ron
Good new Ron, tell you what the more I ride with the Snowtrackers the better I like them, It almost feels like they are getting better with more mileage, wondering if the corrector plates aren’t getting worn down to the ideal shape and depth… Best bang for the buck for the Apex / Vector chassis IMHO. Keep me posted on your success
February 11th, 2009 at 10:00 pmcheers cr